CG – Anastasia Khoo

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[00:00:00] Dawn Crawford: Welcome to this episode of the Create Good Podcast. Today we have Anastasia to talk about her amazing, very influential communications career. And thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:11] Anastasia Khoo: Thank you very much for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

[00:00:15] Dawn Crawford: Cool. So tell us a little bit about your current position and a little bit about your career.

[00:00:21] Anastasia Khoo: So I currently serve in a dual role at the moment as Chief of Staff and Chief Marketing Officer at Conservation International, which is an organization dedicated to protecting nature primarily in the [00:00:36] Global South. But I’ve worked in communications my entire career working on some of the hardest issues you can imagine.

So after tackling, you know, LGBTQ equality, I decided to take on climate change. And I think that sort of perfectly sums up my career is like really helping to advance hard issues through communications and marketing and creative campaigns.

[00:00:59] Dawn Crawford: That’s awesome. I love that. I love that idea of advancing hard issues. Cause I feel like. . . That’s the coolest thing about nonprofits is that it’s the issues that there’s no money in — profit in it, you know, profitability of these [00:01:12] issues, but they are the most important issues that shapes every person’s life.

[00:01:16] Anastasia Khoo: Completely. Completely. And you can say that about, you know, so many other issues that are out there that people are fighting for. You know, these are just two of a small slice of, you know, of what I think at least is really important.

[00:01:30] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. So how many years have you logged in nonprofit communications?

[00:01:34] Anastasia Khoo: A long time. I think you can probably say I’d be one of those people that now has a more than 20 years.

[00:01:43] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, exactly. That’s what I’d say. I know. Like I’ve stopped counting

[00:01:46] Anastasia Khoo: Yes, [00:01:48] that’s right. Yes.

[00:01:50] Dawn Crawford: Well, cool. So why don’t you share with us something that you are excited about? What are you most excited about in your communications, you know, kind of side of your work right now?

[00:02:01] Anastasia Khoo: I think for me and, and working on climate change, like one of the most interesting things for me has been, you know, after many years of lots of people and great organizations and groups and you know, scientists, et cetera, trying to convince the world that climate change was happening, now we’re like, we’re here.

Right? The world is paying attention. Like we [00:02:24] get it. We’re not sort of — for the most part — arguing about does it exist or doesn’t, it’s sort of like, what do we do about it? And I feel like that’s you know, like frustrating. It took us, you know, like the world so long. But also a really exciting time to be like, okay, well now it’s time to do something about it and to take action. And, you know, it’s one of those things where there’s no shortage of like news, attention, et cetera on your issue. Which makes it exciting and certainly challenging too, but, , it’s kind of nice to see the world waking up and realizing sort of where we are, you know, as opposed to even [00:03:00] five years ago there was less attention, less focus, et cetera.

And I think you know, that’s certainly a good thing and we certainly need that.

[00:03:07] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. So is there any sort of like specific tactics that you’re really excited about in utilizing in climate change communications? Any additional hooks that you’ve seen that are really moving people?

[00:03:18] Anastasia Khoo: Well, I would say a couple of things. The new things that I love are just sort of new ways to get across good messages. Like there’s no substitute for a strong messaging campaign. A strong, you know, targets a strong clarity of purpose. I think there’s no substitute for that, and I think what I get [00:03:36] excited about, Is sort of just new ways to distribute that.

So and I will confess, you know, being 20 or more years in this field, like I wasn’t an early adopter of like a TikTok or something, but I have a lot of people on my staff who are, and just really sort of throw themselves into like really very hard to distill a message in such a short amount of time.

And I’m impressed by that. I mean, I love. . I love a good story. I love you know, I love people trying to like, make really creative ways of getting things across. And so I’m always a fan of that and I appreciate the [00:04:12] platforms and the other ways that are be, you know, things that are being developed like. Probably a hundred other platforms like this that I’m not even aware of, but like, you know, younger people are that are just doing it in a simpler, a distilled and different way. And I think the premise exists, but it’s sort of, the execution has changed. And I kinda like that too. It keeps it fresh, it keeps it interesting as well for all of us.

[00:04:36] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. And I think all this new technology has forced all of us to just get shorter, right? And like what matters? Cuz you have about 15 seconds to get somebody’s attention.[00:04:48] 

[00:04:48] Anastasia Khoo: Completely. Completely. And I think it makes it, like the pressure, like we always have said that like you have, you know, not a lot of time to capture someone’s attention, but it is, you know, it, it even less so, and also like quite real in today’s world where it’s just like input all the time.

[00:05:05] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. So you’ve had an amazing career in nonprofits. So, yeah why nonprofits? Like, you’re smart, you’re smart lady. Why? You know, why are you, you know, I think, I think that’s a big question for all of us, right? Of what brings us to this work and what keeps us in this work.[00:05:24] 

[00:05:24] Anastasia Khoo: Yeah. So for me, like, you know, I didn’t have like a very clear sense of like I wanted to finish school and do X, right? I just didn’t have that, that, that level of clarity. But what I did have was like clarity of purpose. Like I knew I wanted to do something good. I didn’t know what that was necessarily or how I would do that, and I knew I wanted to do something good, and You know, I, I remember you know, like a couple of formative experiences for me was when I had a canvasser from Greenpeace knocking on our door. My dad [00:06:00] invited them in and to tell us about the work, and I was like so inspired by that.

I was like, I want to do that. And then,

[00:06:07] Dawn Crawford: You just gave every canvasser their wings.

[00:06:08] Anastasia Khoo: Oh, completely . I know, I know. I like, bless the canvasers. Right? Can we say it’s the hardest job? It’s the hardest job. So, you know, I think you know, certainly that Canvasser had uh, an impact on me. And then when my mom underwent a claim around a male coworker getting paid more than she was for doing the exact same work she worked with the ACLU.

They were like, you have a very legitimate and clear [00:06:36] case. And she did. And I was just, you know, I had those sort of very small but inflection points that made an impression on me that I think helped shape my appreciation for the work and the value that nonprofits have, both in an aspirational sense and in a direct service sense.

And so I knew I wanted to do, to do good and, you know, I was very fortunate to get my foot in the door early on at a couple of nonprofits and some early foundations, and just sort of worked my way through until I, I really landed at the Human Rights Campaign, which was, you know, the bulk of my career.

But what kept me both there and what keeps [00:07:12] me, you know, at Conservation International is. the ability to like try new things, to be creative. And I think, you know, while having never worked in a corporate culture, you know, there’s less bureaucracy, more emphasis to like making it work however you can.

And you have to be creative because there isn’t a lot of funding or, you know, other ways to do it. And so I, I’ve always appreciated that sort of cultural approach that I think some and a lot of nonprofits have born out of necessity in some cases, but also born out of just a spirited culture [00:07:48] of wanting to achieve mission

[00:07:49] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Yeah. And is it is a dedication and yeah, it’s the people, right? The people that we get to work with. But also the ad that the whole thing is to move people to action. That is all our whole job, no matter what. Whether they’re adopting cats or saving gorillas, right? Like it’s moving people to action which is really exciting.

Magic wand time. If you could change one thing about your professional life, what would did you change?

[00:08:12] Anastasia Khoo: Less email.

[00:08:14] Dawn Crawford: Yes. Oh my God, yes, please.

[00:08:16] Anastasia Khoo: Less email. I mean, it sounds so silly, but it’s like you know, the inundation of that. I would love to be able to like, [00:08:24] streamline and be more efficient. Having more creative time. Like my creative time is like the shower, right? Like cuz I’m a mom and I’m busy and I’m, I’m volunteer and all of these other things.

And so I would like, you know, sort of more dedicated time and I think that’s up to me to carve out, to be honest.

[00:08:40] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So what do you feel like you still have to achieve? What are your personal goals for the future?

[00:08:48] Anastasia Khoo: You know, for me, I think I see I’ve been able to do a lot of really great things. I definitely have a couple of jobs left in me. For sure. And I, I look forward to that. [00:09:00] You know, for me it’s –I feel pretty strongly that one of the things that I, I want to achieve is more women and more like mentoring more young women to sort of take leadership roles.

I think we still need that, and then I think it’s sort of up to my generation to help create that. So I feel like pretty, you know, when you start to sort of shift, it’s like for me, professional goals, of course, you know I have some, but like I also think about like what is my legacy as a woman in this space and how am I sort of helping to create that for others? And so that’s one of my [00:09:36] own you know, just personal goals for this, you know, coming year or two is like, how do I help use this position to help do that? And I’m really proud right now, like my leadership team is all women. I love that. I mean, I just, my, I stumbled into a great group of women, but I just, you know, I think putting some thought and inten intention around that is something that I’m personally looking forward to this coming year and next.

[00:09:59] Dawn Crawford: That’s cool. That’s very great. It’s a perfect segue to the next question of what’s your advice to somebody who is starting out in their career or shifting to non-profits and taking up this baton?

[00:10:11] Anastasia Khoo: So [00:10:12] I’d love to give this, I mean, Dawn, I don’t know if this resonates with you, but one of the things I get asked, like a lot of will you, you know, be my mentor or like, you know, will you like how, you know, how do you do this? And I always say get in there and make yourself indispensable.

Absolutely indispensable. And I still do this, like you need me to move chairs, like I’ll move chairs. Like you do whatever it takes to get the job done. And I think that that’s really important in a nonprofit. And for me, it’s important in building a team. I want a team of doers, right? Because that manifests in so many other ways as opposed to like, well that’s not really [00:10:48] in my job description. I just don’t like, that doesn’t resonate with me. 

So, for young people in particular like you know, be proactive. Ask people to coffee. Like don’t make it all about you, but like make it about like, “can I get your advice? Can you share with me what worked for you?” And I think that that’s really as opposed to like, “I want, I want this.”

Like “how can you help me do that?” I see a lot of kids that are really stumbling and I do wish that, you know, places would prepare their students in a different way, I think of the critical thinking is there, but it’s not as [00:11:24] much in terms of like you know, the execution of that. And so I think there — that, that is one piece of advice I always give people that are sort of starting out.

And then I also think, you know, for people, well, I’m seeing this, I don’t know if you’re seeing this, but I am definitely seeing a lot of people post pandemic taking a look and being like, I wanna work a place at a place that has meaning for me.

[00:11:47] Dawn Crawford: Yes, absolutely.

[00:11:49] Anastasia Khoo: And so that transition of like, you know, providing something, you know, getting out of like direct mail or something like that and sort of moving into a different space and like direct service I [00:12:00] think is, I’m seeing that in spades and I’d say like you kind of have to be able to like roll with a little bit of chaos and nonprofits and be comfortable with that, right?

Because not everything is gonna be super clear or linear or, you know, written out. And I think nonprofits can do better in so many ways and have so much to learn from other industries. But if you’re sort of coming over, there is a — you have to have like a role with it kind of attitude. But I think there’s ample opportunity and a lot of eagerness to learn from different sectors of like, okay, well how can we do things differently?

How can we be more efficient? How can [00:12:36] we really you know you know, look at our policies, our practices, et cetera. And I think that that’s an important thing for nonprofits to do as well.

[00:12:44] Dawn Crawford: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when Brian came over to non-profit world. He’s like, well, where’s the brand manager? I’m like, oh, that’s not how it works.

[00:12:54] Anastasia Khoo: We’re all…

[00:12:57] Dawn Crawford: There’s five people who will make a decision on this.

[00:12:59] Anastasia Khoo: Yes!

[00:12:59] Dawn Crawford: It’s like, so yeah, it’s, and it’s, it’s chaos. I think that’s a good one, but yeah, you have to, yeah. You have to love chaos. I watched the Woodstock documentary the, the modern Woodstock documentary and Fat Boy Slim was in [00:13:12] it, and he was like, I live in chaos.

He’s a DJ, you know, he loves that melding of music and like, that uncomfortableness. I don’t know. It really struck me as like, man, that is like, is an interesting way to live your life, is to enjoy chaos. And I love that as a, it’s like you have one foot in chaos for nonprofits. I feel like there’s a very rigid part and then there’s a very chaotic part.

So you have to be good with both sides.

[00:13:33] Anastasia Khoo: Yeah, in the in between. And I feel like there’s like a real opportunity, like places that can thrive in that space of like uncertainty but like still moving forward. I mean like a lot can happen and that’s a [00:13:48] really like creative and– but tension. There’s a tension there for sure.

[00:13:53] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, I love that. That’s great. Okay, so let’s talk about feedback. So feedback for me is about feedback on your ideas. Is this it? You know, take off the manager hat. This is more about how you’re reviewing people’s ideas. I’m writing a book about, about review and about creating, yeah. About personalities of review and then also kind of solidifying an effective, efficient process. So I’m very interested in talking to people about feedback because what I’m finding is it’s pretty universal and what people like, which I’m really excited about.

So yeah. How do [00:14:24] you personally process criticism? Do you do it well? You know, what kind of works for you when you want feedback on your.

[00:14:31] Anastasia Khoo: So I, I thought that these questions were fantastic, so I was so glad that you had asked them because I definitely did some, some thinking about it, and I think my, every, you know, people would say this about me as well, like I am highly critical of myself the most. Like, you’re giving me a piece of criticism.

I’ve already gone 10 x right? Like in my head, right? So I’m, I feel like I’m [00:15:00] fairly sensitive to criticism because I’m like, already so self-critical. Like I, you know, I’m, I’m really sort of — it’s a challenge for me, and I’ve read I’m sure you’ve read like, “Thanks for the Feedback,”. Like I’ve definitely tried to get better about it.

I think I am, I, you know, I think I can absorb it, but I’m also like working on how to hear it and how to like really sort of like, you know, parse it too. Because for me, I’ve thought about this, it’s, it’s the feedback, but also is the person delivering it in a way that they can hear it? And I think about [00:15:36] that all the time.

Like, am I saying this in a way that you can actually hear it? Because, you know, it’s like sort of when you’re managing people, like there’s no one size fits all. Like you really have to be sort of adaptive. . And I, you know, I, I think we can all get better on both feedback and giving feedback and receiving feedback, and that’s something, both of those things I’m definitely working on.

I’m a work in progress.

[00:16:01] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. Yeah. I really like the adaptive cuz I agree. I think in — yeah — in giving and receiving feedback and yeah, people are people, right. And that the way that they give feedback is a culmination of a [00:16:12] lot of life experiences, right? And like a lot of modeling, of good modeling, bad modeling, you know, from college to those early, early interactions with managers, good and bad, you know.

[00:16:23] Anastasia Khoo: It really is. It really is. I think you know, I think, I, I hope, I’m sure you’re finding this, like passive aggressive feedback doesn’t work. The feedback that’s like all of a sudden becomes all the things like doesn’t work. I think there’s a lot, there’s probably a lot, that you could say like, doesn’t work well, you know, but still like a smaller universe of what works and how to deliver it in a way [00:16:48] that people can really take it and act upon it, right? Isn’t it the purpose?

[00:16:51] Dawn Crawford: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I’ve identified eight different feedback styles and only one is good. So it’s, you know, and they’re varying degrees, right? It’s definitely on a spectrum of ” just needs a little bit of work” to “really awful and you probably need to quit because there’s nothing you can do about that person.” right? I think it’s also with feedback too, that people can always improve on their style, but once they’re stressed, they go back to their base style. You know, if you’re really stressed and you’re gonna go back to whatever. Yeah. Kind of toxic style, you have.[00:17:24] 

[00:17:24] Anastasia Khoo: Yep.

[00:17:24] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, cool. So you talked a little bit about yeah, what doesn’t work, but is there any like kind of specific things that you know, you’ve experienced that just didn’t work and things that really kind of stymied your creativity?

[00:17:34] Anastasia Khoo: I, you know, one example is like giving feedback in front of others.

[00:17:40] Dawn Crawford: Hmm.

[00:17:40] Anastasia Khoo: That doesn’t work for me. I don’t think it works for most people. I think that’s a really degrading experience. And so I would say like, that’s definitely, like, you have to spell that out. That’s a no-no, you know, I think, you know, like I yelling doesn’t work either.

And I think you know, like [00:18:00] really sort of — I’ve done a lot of work in um, it sort of comes in handy sometimes, like how to deescalate a situation.

[00:18:07] Dawn Crawford: Yeah,

[00:18:08] Anastasia Khoo: And I think, you know, when people are feeling some things, you know, it can manifest in different ways. And I think if you’re trying to have — it’s like sort of like if you’re trying to have a conversation with someone, or you got an email or something and you’re like instantly like wanna like send it, it’s the same with feedback.

Like take a beat, wait 24 hours. Let yourself be centered before you do that. You know, both of those like, I’ve experienced, and it’s not a [00:18:36] pleasant situation, but I think that like the golden rule of don’t react in the moment is like a good rule of thumb for both written and verbal feedback.

[00:18:46] Dawn Crawford: Yes, absolutely. Then the opposite, is there a moment that feedback really helped you kind of take your idea to the next level?

[00:18:56] Anastasia Khoo: Hmm.

I think I loved — we did this at HRC a lot. I enjoy like the creative brainstorm. I think many of those ideas that we did at the organization were born in that space of like bringing people together, problem solving in like a [00:19:12] small room together, being like, here are all of our like naming ideas. We could do this, we could do that. And I think when you can create an ethos of people working together to sort of iterate on an idea, like you actually create magic. And there is something really special about feeling like you all have ownership, you’re all moving towards the same thing. That is, is incredibly special.

All of the ideas at, you know, at HRC in particular that I did over the years, whether [00:19:48] it’s the Moms for Transgender Equality Campaign or the People’s Brief or other things, it was like, you know, born of like me having an idea, but my peers contributing to, you know, making it better.

And I think that is something really, really, really special. That time I had there was just, it was magic. It really was magic because of that. And I think the feedback of that is less about like you as a person, I think, and it’s more about your ideas and, and really the comradery about making [00:20:24] it better for, you know, to help us achieve mission.

[00:20:27] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Yeah. And great feedback is about collaboration, right? It’s about working on it together, but that has, you have to create a safe space, right? You have to talk about your styles and the things that aren’t working, and then the things that are working, so…well I think you’re gonna love my book!

[00:20:42] Anastasia Khoo: I can’t wait!

[00:20:43] Dawn Crawford: You’re gonna be like, this is in my head.

[00:20:45] Anastasia Khoo: Will you please let me know when it’s out? Cause I think every, I think everybody struggles with this, and I think part of our challenge is that, you know, maybe in nonprofits that, you know, we have an annual review process, which is totally [00:21:00] painful and you know, it’s a laborious process.

Important, but like the feedback should also be like, you should regularly be talking with your team. You should regularly be doing, it shouldn’t be like this one moment in time to like deliver. And I think you know, that’s the other thing is like, are you sort of finding inflection points to kind of work together to collaborate, to iterate?

And I think the iteration is where like some special things can really happen.

[00:21:26] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, great. So, yeah, so we’re both busy ladies, right? We’re both working very hard with kids and life and [00:21:36] saving the world and from our corner of the world. So how do you avoid burnout? How do you help keep coming back? What are the things that keep, you know, filling up your cup?

[00:21:46] Anastasia Khoo: So last summer I like hit peak burnout, like full on peak. It was just like I just reached a limit and we really like my family and I just really were like hardcore about checking out, like no email, like I wasn’t taking calls. And generally people are, are respectful about it. And my shout out to my boss in particular for really honoring that.

That was like to really take the time, and discipline in [00:22:12] myself to take the time. I’m not very good at that. And so I think that’s a hard, that was hard for me, but like, so restorative when I actually did. Time off has to be time off and I let it bleed cuz I love to work. I do live to work.

I love and live to work, but I think, like I definitely reached a point where I was like, something has to give I’m not my best self. And so that is an important thing. I think I try to be really disciplined about , my lists and my like ta like I’m really sort of, I, I try to be really clear about that.

Like what’s my, my home [00:22:48] task, what’s my work task, what’s my, like, other tasks. I’m really clear about that. So that’s another way to that I work on burnout. And then, you know, just to be perfectly honest, like I still struggle with it. Like we took a — you know, went to see family for the first time, you know, in the pandemic.

And I found it hard to kind of like, turn off. You know, I’d love to say like, oh, I’m working out every day, but like that’s not really happening. I would aspire to do that. For sure. But it’s things like when I’m taking a walk with my dog, which I really enjoy, I’m not checking my phone, right?

It’s like little things that I’m trying to put some [00:23:24] boundaries around time because that’s when I’m like, kind of letting my brain think and being creative and appreciating like the beauty of nature and I can’t do that when I’m, you know, looking down. And so I’m again, in the same way with feedback, like I’m a work in progress, but I’m definitely trying to do that more.

[00:23:47] Dawn Crawford: Awesome. Yeah, definitely. So what makes you coming back to work every day? What’s the thing?

[00:23:53] Anastasia Khoo: I love to solve problems. I love to like have the space and the creativity to do it. I love to be [00:24:00] busy and you know, I’ve really — I love the issues that I work on. And you know, I would also say for me, like being around inspiring people that I feel both inspired and challenged by is important too.

And I’ve been fortunate to have that at my most recent job at the Human Rights Campaign, but certainly at Conservation International. And that that for me keeps it like, I like the people I work with, you know, and I think that’s important.

[00:24:26] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

[00:24:28] Anastasia Khoo: You know, I was telling someone and I said, we spend more time with our coworkers sometimes than we do with our own families.

And so [00:24:36] to have people that you enjoy and it sort of becomes, you know — I do think there’s a difference between like, your work is your work and your family is your family, but to like them, like that’s an important thing. You’re with them more often, you know, sometimes than than family, cuz you’re working a lot.

And so I’ve been grateful for that in both places.

[00:24:54] Dawn Crawford: That’s awesome. Yeah, it’s true. Yeah, to truly like people. I think that is, it’s very important. That’s great. Okay. Rapid fire. This section, we should have fast answers, short answers, communicators struggle with this, but you know, we can do it. Okay. Favorite word?

[00:25:11] Anastasia Khoo: [00:25:12] I use fuck all the time, like…a sailor’s mouth. It’s like both my favorite word and my curse word. It’s like it’s a challenge.

[00:25:20] Dawn Crawford: That’s good. What’s your least favorite word?

[00:25:22] Anastasia Khoo: Soft.

[00:25:24] Dawn Crawford: Okay. What is your personal cause or your nonprofit? What’s your personal — personal passion?

[00:25:30] Anastasia Khoo: You know, as a woman living this country today, I feel pretty strongly about where things ended with Roe v. Wade and obviously feel a renewed sense of commitment to the issue of abortion to saying abortion. You know, I had this like really cute little tea that said [00:25:48] 1973, and everyone’s like, is that when you were born?

And, and my husband was like, “you just need to say the word.” Like, we need to normalize that and be, and, and like even the vernacular of it. And so I — you know, I think like so many other women, and I think we’re seeing this as an election issue, I, you know, it’s one of my — I feel very personally committed to and passionate about.

[00:26:09] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Absolutely. Is there a nonprofit cause that gets too much attention?

[00:26:14] Anastasia Khoo: I don’t think so. I mean, I think, you know, you could say like some of the, you know, medical issues, but they’re all important, right? I just don’t think — I would say are [00:26:24] there other things that get more attention than nonprofits? Yeah. For sure. For sure.

[00:26:30] Dawn Crawford: That’s very fair. So do you have another favorite curse word? Do you have another…really good one?

[00:26:34] Anastasia Khoo: I mean, I use that pretty consistently.

[00:26:36] Dawn Crawford: Okay. So there we go.

[00:26:37] Anastasia Khoo: I can do like various moments and, and inflections and permutations.

[00:26:43] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. What profession, other than your own, would you like to try?

[00:26:46] Anastasia Khoo: So I’ve been, I thought about this. I was thinking like, is it too old for me to go back to like medical or to pursue medical school? Like, thinking about how do I really provide service? I just, I’ve really [00:27:00] found, you know, that profession, whether doctors, nurses, like important and more important now, probably because of the pandemic, and I thought if there was one thing I could do, I would do that.

[00:27:10] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. Well, I, I have a pitch for public health. I think that’s an interesting place where communications and service really lines up and that’s what I’ve found. I have a, we have a lot of public, public health clients and that really helps with that. Like hands-on service, you know, that we need in our lives.

So yeah, that’s something to, something to look at. A lot less schooling. So that’s 

[00:27:32] Anastasia Khoo: And it’s like, you know, it really is the front lines and [00:27:36] we see that in so many ways. I think, you know, born to bear in the, in the pandemic. And I you know, such appreciation for that, the field in general.

[00:27:44] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Okay. Then what nonprofit professional organization would you like to hear on this podcast?

[00:27:52] Anastasia Khoo: Oh my gosh. I just went to a uh, fundraiser for this amazing organization that is fundraising for mobile abortion clinics. And I just thought like, what a fantastic thing to be doing around border states, and I just felt very inspired by that sort of direct [00:28:12] service. And so it’s…gosh, now I’m forgetting.

It’s fantastic. I will have to get back to you. It’s like, it’s more than the pill. It’s just the pill. I, I’m forgetting the name of it, but I had never heard of it before and I was like, wow. I, I love that idea and, and certainly prescient, there’s so many others that come to — you know, my friends at HRC always fantastic.

There’s so many great organizations working on transgender issues.

[00:28:37] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

[00:28:38] Anastasia Khoo: There’s a great transgender health clinic, the first in its country, in Massachusetts. That’s fantastic. I mean, just,

[00:28:44] Dawn Crawford: That’s cool.

[00:28:45] Anastasia Khoo: so many that there are too many to list [00:28:48] and I know so many others that are doing really great work. So, Dawn, thank you for having all of these great organizations and giving them a platform to talk about their work, to talk about the good things that they’re doing. Cause I think that’s the spirit of nonprofits wanting to change the world and we need that all the time. And the idealism, but practicality that nonprofits bring, I think is something really special.

[00:29:12] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining me. You are always inspiring. It always feels yes, feels like a kindred spirit, and it’s always good to feel like there’s somebody else out there doing amazing [00:29:24] work like you are.

[00:29:24] Anastasia Khoo: Likewise, and please send me the details about your book. I can’t wait to, I need to read it.

[00:29:30] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty exciting. It’s been a, it’s been a fun journey.

So but yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. And for everybody listening, have a great rest of your day.