[00:00:37] Dawn Crawford:

Well, welcome to this episode of the Create Good podcast. Today we have Abram Garcia and I’m so excited to have this great advocate and all around cool communications guy.

[00:01:23] Abram Garcia: Well thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to kind of just sit down and chat with you and catch up a little bit.

[00:01:28] Dawn Crawford: Great. So go ahead and share with us your current title and a little bit about the organization that you work for.

[00:01:34] Abram Garcia: Yeah. So while I worked for the New Jersey State Bar Association and so we kind of serve as the voice of the New Jersey attorneys to other organizations, government entities, and the public with regards to the law, legal profession, and legal system. We also work to promote access to the justice system, fairness to its administration and the independence and integrity of the judicial branch.

[00:01:57] Dawn Crawford: Wow. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of big words in there.

[00:02:00] Abram Garcia: Yeah, I know. I was gonna say the legal jargon, you gotta love it

[00:02:03] Dawn Crawford: It is. It’s so good. So good. So how many years now have you been in nonprofit communication.

[00:02:09] Abram Garcia: Let’s see. I graduated in 2015 from college and took the summer off and kind of enjoyed, begged my parents to let me take a couple months off. So I started really working at 2016, early 2016. So six years.

[00:02:25] Dawn Crawford: Wow.

[00:02:26] Abram Garcia: years. That would be,

[00:02:27] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. And, and the pandemic took away like what, two years out of our collective time, so

[00:02:33] Abram Garcia: Yeah, I was gonna say, and yeah, so I was four years into the workforce and then , you know, and then the new normal.

[00:02:39] Dawn Crawford: know, it’s crazy. Totally. Okay. So yeah, so why don’t you share with us a little bit about your career and how you got to where you are today.

[00:02:47] Abram Garcia: Yeah. Well, I did not start wanting to do nonprofits and communications. I actually wanted to be a lawyer. I even went to a special high school program in the city of Chicago that was for kids interested in becoming lawyers. So as a special law program, I interned with judges as a like 16, 17 year old and really invested my life into it.

Went to college thinking that that’s what I wanted to do, Did pre-law government affairs is my major. And then my advisor at the time told me, take a year off, get some real work-life experience. I love the law, but I’m not practicing, so you should try something beyond, you know, just law. I know you love it. I worked at the American Bar Association right after college and worked in their membership department, Got involved with the marketing communications of it and kind of fell in love with the legal marketing of it all and then left it for a little bit to go to for profit.

Wasn’t really my thing. . And then came back to nonprofit world here in DC.

[00:03:49] Dawn Crawford: What was that bug early that really inspired you to want to be a lawyer and Yeah, argue the law?

[00:03:56] Abram Garcia: Yeah, I mean, I think just. The amount of turmoil and change the world was going through politically growing up. You know, we were seeing the amounts of deportations and, and borders and, and it was just really kind of like, I really want to be a part of this change as a Mexican-American myself.

I, I definitely wanted to really be part of that change, help out if I could. So that’s really what inspired me to kind of want to go to law school is the immigration rights. And at that time it seemed like going to law school was the perfect fit, but now I found other avenues that I can help out and, and even help out as a hobby, my spare time.

[00:04:34] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Especially In the nineties and two thousands, I felt, I felt that pressure too, that it’s like, well, if you wanna change the world, you have to become a lawyer. I got that message, too. And then I got into college and I’m like, Wow, this is, it’s not gonna work out.

[00:04:48] Abram Garcia: Yeah. I mean, it’s all, it’s a lot of reading and writing. You wouldn’t think at but it’s, it’s less as actiony as you see on TV and

[00:04:54] Dawn Crawford: Yeah,

[00:04:56] Abram Garcia: just reading pounds and pounds of books as I would describe it.

[00:05:00] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. And your brain has to be like such a steel trap for like detail and names and like that sort of thing. And I was like, Wow, that’s probably not me. So I’ll just tell stories of people who changed the world and you know, I, Yeah, in communication, we definitely do change the world and how people talk about these issues and things like that.

So. Cool. Do you have any interest in maybe going back and pursuing law at some point.

[00:05:20] Abram Garcia: You You know, I, I did go through kind of a quarter of a life crisis last year. I was like, Should I go back? Is this something I wanna do? And I think now that I’ve kind of stuck with kind of the legal communications, legal marketing, I find joy in helping , our members, which are lawyers, kind of changing in the world.

And I love having my work life-balance a little bit. You know, that that’s kind of the beauty of this work, at least that I’ve found is, is being able. To take some time, develop hobbies you know, just, just having a personal life is something that I think we take for granted, you know and certain, you know, doctors and lawyers, these professions are so heavy based that kind of becomes your personal life as well as your, as your work life, you know, So I, I’m grateful for that and I’m grateful that I can help out our members to kind of, you know, achieve what I wanted to, to do myself.

[00:06:17] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, yeah. That’s such a great point. That is definitely a gift in nonprofit life. Okay, so why nonprofits? Tell us a little bit about your foray into for profits, and then…

…how came back.

[00:06:29] Abram Garcia: I heard about the glitz and the glam of for-profits and I was like, you know, I definitely want to take a look and see what that’s like. It wasn’t for me because of, I think what it just said that work-life balance wasn’t there. It really was kind of very time consuming.

I barely had time to eat lunches anymore, you know? I mean, and even at night, I was still like finding myself cracking open my laptop because, well, I can try to get ahead as much as possible because there was just this never ending pile of stuff to do. The beautiful thing about it was, you know, you had money to do communications and marketing campaigns like that was, you know, having a budget was a beautiful thing.

I’m not , I’m not gonna lie. And there were, and there were perks, you know, of course, like free swag, you know, food trucks, et cetera, et cetera. But it just wasn’t for me because I am a mission driven person. I, I love to do things for a purpose and for a reason. And that’s ultimately why I came back for nonprofits.

I mean, honestly, that’s why most nonprofits start is because there’s a gap of, or a need that it’s not being fulfilled somewhere. And a group of people decide, Hey, you know, we should change something about that. And, and, and that to me is, is fundamentally the most important thing that kind of gets me through my day, gets me going.

Even though my mission statement, which I just said to you not too long ago, was a. Little jargon happy. You know, to me it’s, it’s still very true of the fact that we, you know, we’re here to help lawyers be better lawyers by providing them education, by providing them kind of the opportunities to connect with each other.

Mental health is also a big initiative and importance for us. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re struggling. There’s a, there’s a big increase in mental health problems in the, in lawyers and legal profession. So finding ways on how we can help them kind of cope and, and deal with that. The heavy stress of being an attorney and also just kind of helping and educating the general public on, you know, this is what we can do for you. We can help educate in the school system. We have kind of those days where attorneys and, and our foundation goes and has a law day where we educate and spread word about what are your Miranda rights, what is, you know, just educating kids on fundamental important things regarding law alum.

[00:08:43] Dawn Crawford: That’s awesome. That’s great. Very cool. So what’s your favorite thing about what you

[00:08:47] Abram Garcia: As cheesy as it is I enjoy collaborating with just different people of different aspects of life. I, I find that nonprofit individuals we all come here together and we never really intended to be nonprofit people. So you meet people of all aspects of different types of expertise.

And so it’s really cool to see and work with like an ex-CEO of a Fortune 500, who’s now decided to kind of be more of an operations role because he cares about a cause. And so really just kind of the collaboration that goes on in nonprofits and really just kind of sticking to the mission and really driving change in both local and statewide in the community.

[00:09:33] Dawn Crawford: So magic wand time, what’s one thing you wish you could change about your job.

[00:09:38] Abram Garcia: As as sad as it sounds , I mean, I think I would love to be able to spend more time digging through so much of our data that we have. I think that there’s so much of the past that we can learn from. I’m a big believer in , it’s kind of all full circle and what, what’s old becomes new and new is old.

As much as I do love my work life balance, I would love to be able to spend some time to do a little bit more research of what worked in the past, what didn’t and, and figure out how we can better serve the needs of attorneys of today through that research.

[00:10:11] Dawn Crawford: Taking more time to look at analytics and, yeah. Cause I think that’s an interesting thing about communication. So there’s so many different points to look at. So how do you kind of filter it to be useful? That’s a good point. Okay. So what are you looking forward to in the next year professionally?

[00:10:24] Abram Garcia: Professionally, I’m looking, well, I just completed my, my first year at the New Jersey State Bar Association. So I’m looking, you know, and I just launched a membership playbook. That kind of talks about how we talk to our members, what our members are looking for. Kind of an ultimate guide as to who they are, what they’re looking for from us, and how we can help. And I’m really looking forward to more so now the implementation of that, creating engagement communication journeys kind of throughout the year. You know, launching acquisition campaigns to get more attorneys to join our causes, getting members more involved in local community and events that we host.

And so really now I’ve developed the groundwork of here’s what you know, here’s who our members are, here’s what they’re looking from us, and here’s. You know, our, our next kind of five year plan of how we’re looking to engage, grow, and really kind of expand on the programs and services we do.

[00:11:20] Dawn Crawford: That’s awesome. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. And how a year under your belt is such a nice feeling cuz you do learn so much in that first year.

[00:11:27] Abram Garcia: you know Yeah, I was gonna say it always, Year one is always trial by fire. I always kind of really say it happens in nonprofits because you come in at such a, I always feel at a dire time of like, there’s a big gap. Please help where you can. But also, you know, you also wanna do more than just help out and patch, you know, patch the holes is, let’s look, let’s look beyond that and, and see what’s, what’s causing the holes, rather than just just patch ’em. ,

[00:11:57] Dawn Crawford: You’ve kind of had a reverse career as far as organizations. You went big, you went national, right? You’re at the National Bar Association, and then you went to Specialty National with NAPABA and then you’ve got to state so it’s interesting, right? Like most people have kind of the reverse, you go like small to big.

[00:12:13] Abram Garcia: My

spec.

[00:12:14] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. So I mean, so what do you feel like you still wanna achieve? What do you think is kind of the next step. I mean, I know you’re just a year in, but like, what else do you need to achieve in your career?

[00:12:24] Abram Garcia: Work wise, I, I want, I mean, I have a number that I want to grow our membership to, so that’s definitely so right now we’re at 16,000. I’d love to, before I leave or venture out to something else, 20 is my, is my goal. That’s a lot, but I think it is doable with kind of the resources. My team is fantastic so you know, I have no doubt now that we have our guardrails that we can definitely launch these acquisition campaigns and keep, you know that number in line. Personally, I, I don’t, I don’t really know. I think, you know, I’ve toyed with the idea and I’ve spoken with my mentor about potentially kind of creating my own little agency.

I’ve. It, it’s, it’s overwhelming because I have no, you know, I have no idea how to run a business. I know how to do communications and marketing , but I have no idea how to run a business. So I would definitely need to do a lot of research, kind of get some help and assistance along the way. But I think in the future, I think having something of my own just sounds so exciting and scary, and, and I think ultimately I, I do enjoy kind of calling the shots.

So I think that makes sense as a next step for me professionally.

[00:13:44] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I vouch for It’s very fun. It’s very fun. It’s a, it’s a wild life. What’s interesting, it shortens your horizon. Like we are only, you have about cash flow for like six months, so you always kind of, it’s not. You know, like you can have three or five year plans, but like really it’s next six months is like really what you’re looking at, which is interesting.

So it keeps you very present. And yeah, just find a good business partner. That’s what I have, Brian, Brian’s the

[00:14:08] Abram Garcia: And you married him? I

[00:14:09] Dawn Crawford: Yes, exactly. So it works out real well.

[00:14:12] Abram Garcia: Okay.

[00:14:13] Dawn Crawford: but it is, you know, and that could be, yeah, it could be a hired position or a partner, a business partner,

and then just loving it, . And We say that, yeah, we only have one human child and then our business is our second child because they demand that level of attention and love. Right. And thankfully the business pays for itself. My daughter does not pay for herself.

[00:14:31] Abram Garcia: So it’s one on, you know, you got one on one, so it works out at

[00:14:35] Dawn Crawford: does. It does, Yeah. I definitely go for it. I mean, but. New Jersey needs you, so stay

[00:14:42] Abram Garcia: Yes, Yes. They, I, I have reassured them that I’m not going anywhere for, for a while. So no I will be here.

[00:14:50] Dawn Crawford: Great. So what advice do you have for somebody who’s starting out their career on nonprofits or maybe making the jump to the sector.

[00:14:56] Abram Garcia: I think have patience. Patience is something. has been helpful. I’m still learning it time to time. I’m so I want change and I want it now, and that’s not always the case, nor is it the best business approach sometimes I think just understanding why things are the way they are when you come in and understanding that everything has to be kind of be gradual. It can’t all just be at once, even though you want, you know, to turn the, the boat around. I think understanding how to really get what you need to get done, but, timely, more constructed way is, is something that I would really give myself If you wanted to start a nonprofits, I, you know, you go in thinking you can change the world right away in a day, and, and, and that’s not the case.

But it’s also a good thing because it teaches you how to work with peers. It teaches you how to kind of work with additional stakeholders outside. It teaches you a lot about yourself, about how you prioritize your work and what’s important. What can, you know, take a backseat? Cuz not everything can be in the front row, so it’ll burnout so quickly.

You know, that that’s, that’s one thing that you do want to avoid is that burnout.

[00:16:10] Dawn Crawford: Hm.

[00:16:11] Abram Garcia: so I’d say patience would be the top thing.

[00:16:15] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

[00:16:16] Abram Garcia: it’s

[00:16:17] Dawn Crawford: It’s a good one. Because it is so much about collaboration and it is, yeah. It’s about making sure everybody feels good about the decision before you move forward, so,

[00:16:24] Abram Garcia: Exactly.

[00:16:25] Dawn Crawford: And all the stakeholders. Absolutely. Okay, so our next section is talking about feedback and the way you receive feedback and review on your ideas.

So this isn’t about. Professional feedback or you know, on your job, but it’s really about on your ideas, on your playbook plan, all those sort of things. So how do you personally process criticism and feedback on your work?

[00:16:47] Abram Garcia: Well, one, I always welcome it. I feel like if you’re not getting feedback on something, then one, someone didn’t really take the time to look at it. . And then two. There’s always for improvement, I think. No, no work is perfect. I, you know, I always keep an open ear. I’m a big brainstorming guy, brainstorming session. I mean, when I was at the ABA we used to hold like brainstorming Tuesday with which just kind of , the associates and specialists, but you know, the lower level marketers to kind of brainstorm campaign ideas, review our copy, you know, what will we tweak and edit. And I think as long as the work, the criticism is merited with data and findings. It’s okay. It makes sense. As long as it’s not like anything personal. You know, I’m a big believer, you know, sometimes things kind of get personal as you get closer to your teammates and, and colleagues. So always just keeping the work about work and personal, personal..

[00:17:50] Dawn Crawford: A good observation. Yeah. That is over time feedback get Yeah. Mired in those kind of details of like why, like why is it always like this? Yeah. Those sort of weird comments that, That’s interesting. That’s an interesting observation.

[00:18:04] Abram Garcia: I also find that people, as you know them more, are willing to pull their punches a little bit in terms of. It’s not, you know, if it’s not great, you can let me know. I, I would hope that I have opened that door, that door for you. But no, I, I completely get it. People wanna be respectful. But I, you know I’m, I’m also firm believer of progress, so I think that, you know, not being candid with, with your honesty and feedback is it’s kind of stunt someone’s growth and ability to kind of create something that may or may not take off.

[00:18:35] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. So what style of feedback do you like to receive? Do you like to receive direct feedback, detailed feedback, vague feedback so you can make room? What kind of feedback do you like to receive?

[00:18:46] Abram Garcia: Ooh. I would say probably direct the, the more clean cut. Clear. You can tell me how you envision something where something can be improved the better. Vague leaves room for interpretation, and I have found that. doesn’t always work out very well, especially when a, you know, a boss can be vague. It’s like, I’m not sure the direction you’re talking about, so I’m gonna take a stab at it and hope

[00:19:10] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

That’s usually wrong. And you’re like,

[00:19:12] Abram Garcia: and, and then it’s like, well, you know, we could have avoided the,

[00:19:16] Dawn Crawford: I all the

[00:19:17] Abram Garcia: around , but so the more direct, the more candid, to me that’s, that’s number one. So,

[00:19:24] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Is there style of feedback that doesn’t work for you?

[00:19:26] Abram Garcia: I, I guess just kind of being very vague or very too, there’s also, I guess the two extremes being very vague and being like, basically writing my copy for me is, is really a big no-no. So you rewriting something completely. is not helpful to me because I, you know, I, you haven’t given me that opportunity to say, Hey, let me change it and, and make some edits and see if I can, you know, create something that satisfies both of us.

You just kind of said, I’ll handle it. And, and when someone does that, it’s like, I don’t trust that you can do that. So that to me is a kind of trust issue.

[00:20:06] Dawn Crawford: Yeah,

[00:20:08] Abram Garcia: So I would say those two opposites, you know, not providing any feedback and then providing too much feedback where someone’s basically doing the work for you,

[00:20:18] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Both of those feel, Yeah, especially the direct kind of rewriting it’s, Yeah, it’s hard and some people can’t help it.

[00:20:26] Abram Garcia: Yeah, I, I’ve noticed that too, that it’s, it’s truly just someone thinks that it will speed up the process, but in doing so, you’re trading off. Kind of the respect for your colleague and,

[00:20:39] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

[00:20:39] Abram Garcia: the credibility that they’re able to create good work.

[00:20:42] Dawn Crawford: Yeah. And I always, I can’t imagine anybody rewriting copy out of joy. Right. That like , somebody’s like, I’m so happy rewriting this for you,

[00:20:50] Abram Garcia: yeah, that’s kind of where I’m like, you know, but, but it, but to, to be set, I guess. It is, it is easier to edit a copy than it is to start copy. So, you know, we, we know that for a fact,

[00:21:02] Dawn Crawford: Yes. Isn’t it amazing? I know when you get to see that, you’re like, Oh, this is amazing. It’s so much easier, Cool. Okay, so this series it’s also really talking to people. About how to avoid burnout. You know, I feel like, you know, we’re halfway through 2022 in this conversation today, but, and I feel like people have started to balance a little bit better.

I think certainly for the first two quarters of the year, it was, it was rough, right? People were really feeling it. But I think this summer has been good for people too. , you get a break from Covid, whether that’s a smart public health choice or not , but also people are traveling and that sort of thing.

I mean, how are you feeling on your burnout level? Are you feeling pretty good? Are you still feeling kind of that PTSD?

[00:21:44] Abram Garcia: No, I’d say this summer has been the first summer. I, I don’t feel so heavily burned by world events. I mean, I should, but I don’t, I and, and it’s just cuz I, you know, I’m taking the time off to enjoy summer and enjoy travel again. I think you, you know, you kind of just touched on that it’s, I have the ability to see friends I haven’t seen for 2.5 years has been kind of great for just, morale and, and being out and, and what’s great about, you know, the New Jersey State Bars, they’re, they’re very open to taking that time off.

Please take the time off and, you know, I don’t feel guilty if I spontaneously on a Thursday night saying, I think I’m gonna take Friday off

[00:22:28] Dawn Crawford: Yeah.

[00:22:28] Abram Garcia: because I can catch a flight to see, you know, a friend that haven’t seen in a while, or just a mental health day. So definitely taking the time for yourself to just kind of reset has been helpful.

I’m also taking up running so running has been a great way for me to avoid feeling stress and any kind of burnout because I have a goal that I need to meet. And so I’m so focused on achieving that. And it’s great for also just getting out and about and seeing the neighborhood.

I moved to DC during the pandemic, so I didn’t even get to see it until really late last year cuz I, we were so, you know, DC didn’t open much of anything until, until very late. So. Now I feel like I, I am getting to know the city. Going for runs and walks is great. Just to see different neighborhoods taking different paths and seeing people out and about.

It’s is a nice and beautiful thing,

[00:23:28] Dawn Crawford: it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. It’s amazing seeing people. It’s wild. But we’ve lived there, that’s for sure. Yeah. So what makes you come back to work every day? What’s the, what’s the kind of drive?

[00:23:38] Abram Garcia: I always, I think it’s mostly wanting to continue to do, as cheesy as it sounds, good. I, I want to continue to make improvements on how we run as an association, how, what we do for our members, how we advocate for the community and the state of New Jersey. I am a mission driven person and I think for me, that that’s, that’s the most important thing in a workplace is people that believe in, in what they’re doing.

And so continuing to further our mission is really what keeps me going and, and interacting with our members. I finally have met some members in person because we’re holding first in-person networking events since 2.5 years. And let me tell you, they are the most lively, fun people. I know lawyers get a bad rap, , but I will say that getting to meet our members has been truly a joy that I, you know, keeps me going ,

[00:24:36] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, I agree. I agree. . When you actually, talk to lawyers, they’re fascinating. Yeah. Because they are. It’s also very mission driven, I think.

[00:24:43] Abram Garcia: Yeah, and they’re multifaceted. I mean, I think they, they all have a weird, cool hobby that you wouldn’t expect. It’s like, wow, you do that and you practice law. It’s fascinating. Like I know one that’s growing a garden and you know, grow. It created a greenhouse in their home and like developed, is now growing his own vegetables.

And I’m like, How do you have time to garden and

[00:25:10] Dawn Crawford: I know, Yeah.

[00:25:12] Abram Garcia: do that? So sometimes they make you feel bad about yourself because it’s like, I should be doing more.

[00:25:16] Dawn Crawford: know. It’s like you’re doing all that and that. Oh,

[00:25:18] Abram Garcia: I know. And, but, but I think it’s also very inspiring, like, okay, I can take up something else

[00:25:24] Dawn Crawford: Yeah,

[00:25:25] Abram Garcia: to bide

[00:25:26] Dawn Crawford: little dabble like a dabble. Okay. So the next section of questions is our kind of wrap up rapid fire you know, kind of brief answers. The goal is one word, communications people. It’s very hard. It’s very hard for them to say just one word. You can have a phrase. Okay, you ready? Okay.

What’s your favorite word?

[00:25:47] Abram Garcia: Teamwork.

[00:25:48] Dawn Crawford: What’s your least favorite word?

[00:25:50] Abram Garcia: Email blast

[00:25:54] Dawn Crawford: uh, What’s your personal nonprofit cause or passion?

[00:25:57] Abram Garcia: Hispanic Heritage Foundation.

[00:25:59] Dawn Crawford: Great. What Nonprofit Cause gets too much attention.

[00:26:03] Abram Garcia: if you asked me prior to 2015, it would’ve been the nfl. But now I would say the Salvation Army

[00:26:09] Dawn Crawford: Oh, interesting. That’s a good one. Good one. What’s your favorite curse?

[00:26:12] Abram Garcia: The F word

[00:26:13] Dawn Crawford: Okay. You can say it if you want. It’s

[00:26:15] Abram Garcia: I know, I know, I know

[00:26:17] Dawn Crawford: What profession, other than your own, would you like to attempt?

[00:26:20] Abram Garcia: We talked about lawyers being a lawyer again, and I think that that’s always in the back of the mind.

[00:26:25] Dawn Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what nonprofit, professional or organization would you like to hear from on this podcast?

[00:26:32] Abram Garcia: The folks that Habitat for Humanity, I think they do great work. And just, I would love to hear about kind of the stories that they get to kind of be exposed to and. And just the good work that they, that organization does and, and helping folks is truly phenomenal.

[00:26:50] Dawn Crawford: Well, cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us today for this episode. It’s always nice to chat with you. It’s very inspiring. Yeah, it’s great to hear from you though. I think, As you can see from our podcast roster, there’s not a lot of gentlemen out there who are kind of holding the line for nonprofit communications.

So

thank you,

[00:27:09] Abram Garcia: Yeah, no, happy to hold the fort down and hopefully encourage a young, you know, nonprofiter in the making to, to join in the ranks.

[00:27:17] Dawn Crawford: Absolutely. Cuz we need, yeah, we need male voices. I just think it’s so important to have that balance and there’s so many ladies, which we love the ladies, lady empowerment.

[00:27:25] Abram Garcia: Do. We do, we do.

[00:27:26] Dawn Crawford: You know, we gotta balance. Gotta balance. So,

Well, thank you so much.

[00:27:29] Abram Garcia: Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. Oh no. I was gonna say, we just but it’s also nice to just have the diversity here and there, so

[00:27:36] Dawn Crawford: absolutely. Nope. Yep. It is fantastic. So thank you so much and thank you for everybody out there listening to this episode. Have a great rest of your day.